While Angela Merkel and Bill Gates are interested in her opinion, she does not forget where she started from. Katalin Kariko's discoveries also led to the development for the Covid vaccine which saves millions of lives. In an exclusive interview with the Hungarian daily Magyar Nemzet, the Szechenyi Prize-winning researcher talked about the traditional Hungarian dish she made in San Diego, the importance of faith in ourselves, and the power of traditions.

First of all, I would like to congratulate you, above all else, on your second grandchild, Zsuzsanna Willow Amos, who was born on 11 November. Why Zsuzsanna?

For twelve generations in our family, the first-born girls have been named Zsuzsanna. My sister’s name is Zsuzsanna, my mother, grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother also bore this name. My daughter is also Zsuzsanna and now my granddaughter as well. It was important for my daughter to name her daughter Zsuzsanna. Another proof of the power of family traditions is that we wrapped the little one in the same swaddling clothes that my mom, then me, and then my daughter was wrapped in after birth.

At the time of the arrival of my second grandchild, I was with my daughter in San Diego on the west coast for three weeks. I cooked Zsuzsi’s favorite dish at least three times, the Hungarian shepherd’s dish known as „oreglebbencs” or „slambuc”. My son-in-law – who is American – also loves it. When I was there, I spoiled my eldest grandson, whose official name is Alexander. But I call him Sanyika, because the name Alexander is still more Sandor [the Hungarian translation] to me.

You were awarded an honorary doctorate by ELTE this summer. At the time, you said that you had flown around the world several times in the course of a few months to receive 75 prizes, recognitions and awards. Where does the counter stand now?

I’m getting more and more tired, which you will immediately understand if I tell you about my schedule for the beginning of December. In Szeged, I participated in the opening of the Szent-Gyorgyi Study Competition, three days later I was a guest of former German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin, immediately after that I received the Siemens ring, and the next day the Semmelweis–Budapest prize. The latter is my hundredth recognition this year. I can’t believe that all this is happening to me.

Can these recognitions be ranked?

I have ambivalent feelings about this. Our discoveries are basically based upon the work and results of others. I wonder why only we are highlighted? Everyone talks about the Nobel Prize, even though there are other awards as well.

I received the John Scott Award, the oldest award in the United States, established two hundred years ago. It has been awarded to scientists such as Marconi, Tesla, Thomas Edison and Marie Curie. It’s unbelievable that I am in the company of such geniuses! Has anyone in Hungary heard of this recognition? I don’t think so. The general public often infers the value of an award only from the publicity that accompanies its announcement and presentation. If the media reports on it, they pay attention to it, if it doesn’t, they don’t, no matter how high-level the distinction is. I am very proud of the John Scott Award, mainly because of the previous winners.

The Nobel Prize is still missing. Are you disappointed that you haven’t received it (yet)?

It wasn’t for the awards that I did my research. Even without recognition, the joy of discovery made me happy. I feel that my becoming a Nobel laureate is much more important to others than to me.

Many people here in Hungary know that Albert Szent-Gyorgyi discovered vitamin C …

Because he was Hungarian. Now that I was in Canada, I asked young people to list Canadian hockey players. Everyone knew a few. When I asked them to name Canadian researchers, there was a deafening silence in the room. Not because there are no noteworthy professionals there, but because their work and their person are not at the centre of people’s interest there either. People are generally not interested in who discovered the active ingredient that cures their disease. What matters is that it works, and that’s it.

When did you decide to devote your life to science?

Not in the first years of primary school. In the first class of primary school, I had 4s [second best grade] in my school report. I admit, I didn’t have any special abilities. However, in the upper classes of the primary school in Kisujszallas, I had very good chemistry and biology teachers who inspired me to acquire knowledge. I am still proud that I came in third in the national biology competition when I was in the eighth grade.

I had excellent teachers also in secondary school. Thanks to them, I already knew in the second year of high school that I would become a research biologist. In 1973, I was admitted to study biology at the Jozsef Attila University of Szeged, where I was a People’s Republic scholarship holder for three years.

After graduating, I received an academic scholarship. Organic chemist Jeno Tomasz invited me to join his research group at the Szeged Biological Centre (SZBK) of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. At that time, I felt that everything I was doing was incredibly important. I got my doctorate in 1982, and then a rude awakening around 1985: I was dismissed from the SZBK due to staff cuts. I received the notice on my thirtieth birthday, which made me very sad.

Have you ever felt the disadvantages of coming from the countryside?

Kisujszallas is a small town with around eleven thousand or so inhabitants. Our house had a thatched roof, we went to the public well on the street for water, because there wasn’t any running water at the time. I first saw a television when I was ten years old. We didn’t have a refrigerator or other electrical household appliances (as, of course, many others didn’t either at the time), but instead we had a loving and supportive family environment.

My father was a butcher, my mother an accountant. My sister became an economist, obtained a scientific degree, and runs a successful business. We never regretted what we didn’t have, but tried to take advantage of what we did have. Some of my classmates already spoke English when they started their university studies, some had even passed the language exam. I didn’t understand a word, but I worked hard to catch up. I have always been diligent, which my love of science only reinforced. This was important to me in life.

I read that not everyone supported you. One of your secondary school teachers had said that he would make sure that you were not admitted to the University of Szeged.

I learned early on that not everyone is rooting for me, that I also have my opponents. This always pushed me to perform better than others. I had to get the best grade on the entrance exam so that there was no doubt about my admission. During my career, I have been sacked at least four times from different jobs. At the ceremony of the Canada Gairdner International Awards, I sincerely thanked everyone who tried to make my life difficult. They spurred me to be even better.

Are you saying that you owe gratitude to your opponents and critics?

As high school students, we wrote a letter to Janos Selye, the world-famous stress researcher. I learnt from him that one must be able to handle stressful situations. I also learned to build on negative criticism. If my study or my grant application was rejected, I always thoroughly studied the reasonings. I didn’t blame the reviewers, but looked into myself: Maybe I made a mistake, maybe I didn’t explain something clearly enough, so they didn’t understand my message. I believe that you should learn from every rejection.

It doesn’t help if you always blame others for your failures. You have to learn to turn failures into an advantage. In the long run, this is much more useful. Of course, it’s only effective if you put a lot of energy into it.

So one of your benefactors is the person who dismissed you from the Szeged Biological Centre in 1985?

Yes! If that wouldn’t have happened, I certainly wouldn’t be here right now. I wanted to stay in Hungary, but I couldn’t. Then I looked for job opportunities in Europe, but this path was not viable either. After that, we sold everything, and left for the United States with our three-year-old daughter Zsuzsanna and my husband. Our ticket was one way only. I left Temple University after three very productive years because I wanted to pursue research in a different direction. In 1989, I joined the University of Pennsylvania (UPenn), where I did research for twenty-four years. My first application related to mRNA was rejected in 1990, but I was not discouraged.

I convinced myself not to give up, to apply again and again, as the research results became more and more hopeful. Then in 2013, I was sent away from UPenn on grounds that I wasn’t making any money. Since then, of course, they have made a lot of money from the sale of our joint service patent with Drew Weisman. If they hadn’t sacked me then, I wouldn’t have gone to BioNTech in Germany, and then the BioNTech–Pfizer vaccine probably wouldn’t exist today.

I learnt many things from rejections and failures. One is that I didn’t let others judge me, but I defined myself and my future path through my decisions made after failure.s I did not experience the first forty years of my career, which were not abundant in recognitions, as a failure. I felt wonderful in the lab. I was free, doing what I thought was important. Most of the stress in scientific research comes from the fact that for many researchers, after a while, it is not the curiosity-driven experimentation that is important, but the achievement of a higher position. Research is considered by many to be an intermediate stop on the way to greater rank and power.

The youthhood goal of discovering something new and publishing it in a scientific journal so that as many people as possible get to know it becomes merely a tool, a compulsion, which is only important for promotion and appointment. Thus, the joy of discovery is lost, and instead the tension and the competition to obtain higher and higher positions remain. I was not pushy, I was always driven by the desire for knowledge. The „result” came: not only did I not get ahead at the university, but I was even demoted from my academic position.

Why did you resign from the position of vice president of BioNTech this autumn?

I joined the work there in 2013. We laid the foundations, we built a successful company, and it now works well without me.

The full interview is available here.